Team Forfeits

[Mick]

Nothing frustrates me more than when a team forfeits. I know it is unavoidable at times as things come up in life however it is a blight on our competition. The bit that really annoys me is that the team who wins the match via a forfeit gets a 27 to 0 percentage advantage over everyone else in that division. This I think is unfair on the other teams in that division as they do not get the same advantage.

Now I have racked my brains to try and think of a fair way of handling team forfeits but for the life of me I cannot think of a correct solution. So I am throwing it out there to see if any of the members who participate in the forum here can think of a fair way to handle team forfeits.

Anyone?

[sevenball]

i agree that a 27-0 win is not fair nor realistic scoreline for a pool match, firstly the time frame of postponed matches taking place should be extended from 1 week to 3 weeks that way it gives players alot of notice and they can plan for nights off work and etc.... in advance and they can organize better , a week is to short and players have to give their bosses notice and or get the night off or cut work short and just whatever else they need to sort to be there for the night , remembering not everyone just works daytime and is home by 5 or 6 and players do participate in other pool leagues in mandurah and perth and a postpone is awkward on some teams when you got them flying in and out the state/country at will. wheres my holiday lol. On the forfeit there is not real fair way for the forfietd team to recieve points for not playing, but on the other hand and this may be an idea how about the team that receives the forfeit gets the win and thier average score per match as their total eg, "X" team forfeits to "Y" team and "Y" team has played 10 matches in the season and they have totaled 120 frames won so an average of 12 frames per match , so a 12-0 forfeit win, its a lot fairer than 27-0 and then caps the advantage giving to the receiving team and the recieving teams gets what it deserves. but a forfiet in round 1 of season is 27-0 as thier is no average.

[8ball]

G'day Mick,
The playing members on the team that get a forfiet dont get any frames attributed to them, which can seriously dampen their spirits, especially if they are trying to get into the top 16 or perhaps the chance to improve on their current top 16 position.So the only actual advantage is from a team point of view. Having said this,the players forfieting on the night get to stay where they are on the top 16 ladder.Is this fair? They didnt win any frames so they cant climb the ladder, but they did not turn up, yet are not penalised except from a team perspective.So maybe you look at the amount of players that did not turn up and penalise the team at a rate of 60% reduction per player(3 frames of a possible 5). IE(1): 3 players turn up,so obviously 2 didnt turn up. You need 5 for a full team so 6 frames are removed( 3 per player) from a total of 27 available frames.This would give a scoreline of 21/6.If only 2 players turn up the percentage increases to 80% reduction(1frame of a possible 5), thus 1 frame removed for each no-show giving a tally of 24/3. No-one turns up and its a 27-0 score line. Obviously if only 4 turn up the game can still be played with 5 frames being forfieted.\

You could also look at the possibility of each player in the winning team receiving 1 win each(100%) which would help alieviate the problem of them being disadvantaged through no fault of their own. These are just ideas that spring to mind.
Russ.

[Mick]

Thanks for answering guys.

I would rather the time frame was kept to just the seven days sevenball as I dont think it would be fair to have it drag on too long. To me ladders should be upto date before the next playing week so that teams know exactly where they stand. This can also be said for the Top 16 too. I do however appreciate what you are saying when it comes to people working or playing in other leagues etc.

I do like your idea of taking an average to settle the winning score though. However what if we were to take the average winning margin of the top side in that division at the time of the forfeit and apply that scoreline to the team which has won by the forfeit. In this particular case your team the Money Shots would be that team and their winning margin for the year at the time of the forfeit was 16 - 11. Hence the team that has won by the forfeit gets the 2 points plus a percentage of 16 - 11 whilst the team that loses by the forfeit gets no points with a percentage of 0 - 27. By doing it this way it could also be applied at any stage of the season including the very first week.

What you are putting forward Russ wouldn't have worked in this particular case as no one from either team turned up. It all started with a mutual agreement between the teams to play the game on another day as there was a funeral and wake happening on the original fixtured date. However problems arose later on in the week and neither team could find a suitable day to play the game due to getting the numbers together hence the forfeit.

[John B]

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[Mick]

Hi John,

Only one team was unable to play on the fixtured night, the other agreed to try and organize another night between the two teams but unfortunately that did not happen. Both team captains along with Erica tried hard to make it work as no one wanted a forfeit to happen. However at no stage was a drawn game ever bought into the equation.

Basically the other team was willing to try and accommodate rather than being jerks and just saying forfeit straight away.

[sevenball]

Brocky we tried to accommodate another playing night but were unable to find a suitable night and had only 7 days to play the match so we had to accept a forfeit, well 2 things mick, first what about even a 2 week time fame as i could of mustered a team for the following week, i.e state trails weren't on the next Saturday so i would of had 2 more players available for a Friday or Saturday match and bad timing of players overseas also played its part and they would of been back, so unfortunate timing was the reason in the end. secondly, the only problem i see with your forfeit idea is for example, mongrels forfeit to madora bay and madora bay receive an 16-11 % win , they just beat mongrels 24-3 which for them is taking away frames instead of receiving. if your playing one of the bottom teams and you think you can beat them more than you receive as a forfeit win than you might get a few grumbles, especially come end of season when top teams will push for % wins to up their stats and ladder positions, i think doing the team itself average score vs 0 is a fair way, i do realize your idea doesn't affect lower teams but does impact top teams . so for example m/shots, m/bay would receive 17-0, diggers 15-0, s/blue 14-0, wizards 13-0, scoundrels, 8's 12-0, stinger 11-0, mongrel 10-0(all stats as of (18/7/10). if the average .5 or higher it goes to next figure (i.e mongrel is 9.54 average so goes up to 10 if below 9.49 it would be 9). teams receive the team total they deserve and its extremely lower than 27-0.

[Mick]

Hey Pete the more I read over what you have come up with there the more I like it. I had realized myself that what I put up before wouldn't work too well but hadn't come up with anything better so had just left it alone. Just a thought what would you award the side that is forfeiting? The reverse of what the winning team gets?

And the two weeks bit is all fine and good except if you are at the end of the season when that time is not available. I suppose one could always make some exception for those circumstances though.

[sevenball]

hey mick, yer mate that's what i mean the score for the match is average frames vs 0. so that's what winning and losing team receive. it seems like a fair system. yer 2 week is great idea and would work. excepting last match of year.

[sevenball]

Rules for team forfeits and postponed matches. a 2 fixture time frame to hold postponed matches, excepting last 2 rounds of season were it is to be played by next fixture or a forfeit occurs, go back to 2nd last round as it could go into final week and cause grumbles if affecting placings. In the event of a forfeit, round/match 1 of season will result in 14-0 win for receiving team and 0-14 loss for the forfeited team, it seems to be a fair result as 14 is what is required to win the night, average is unavailable round/match 1, from round/match 2 the forfeit will be scored as average frames per night (receiving team) vs 0 (forfeited team). this is the scoreline for the match so winning team win average vs 0, and losing team lose 0 vs average. a fair way to be scored.

[Mick]

Another variation to what was suggested. Food for thought.

Thanks Tom.


Hi Mick,

I see you had a problem with a forfeit between 2 teams which always becomes a nightmare.
If you don't mind our suggestion for what it's worth, we have a couple of simple solutions that we use.

If a team doesn't turn up for whatever reason, then the opposing team gets the
points for a normal win and an average score of the night's wins by the other teams.
eg. if you had 6 teams playing on the night and the results were
16-9, 15-10 and 14-11, then the average given would be 15-10 etc.

As for the individual stats, the players don't get any scores, their % stays the same,
keeping in mind that to increase one's % one would need to win around 75% (4/5) of their
games on the night! So getting nothing is better than winning say, 3/5.

The other solution we have used as in your case where I think both teams didn't
turn up, we put that game to be played at the end of the season and put the Finals
forward an extra week.
But, obviously to do all this you would have to make an amendment to your By-laws.

I hope this trivial info may be useful to you.

Kind regards

Tom Manolas
WA 8 Ball League.